Muthu: - You know of the Hindus calling Buddha as Skhiya Muni and the 10th avatar of Vishnu. That was done by Vedic Hindu Priests to convert Buddhists into Hindu fold. One sees the 10th avatar story emerge during the Puranic period. The rise of the Guptas played a very key pivotal role in the way religious history of India evolved. But for them, today India might be a Buddhist and Jain country. This is analogous to the Roman emperor adopting Christianity in 3rd /4th century (Constantine I) which then resulted in the entire Europe becoming Christian. There were several Constantines.
Just 200 years earlier, Christians were fed to the Lions as a sport in Rome in the Colosseum.
Solly: - Credit Paul for that incredible reversal. Here I am referring to the apostle Paul for his skill in converting the Romans
Ved:- Ashley, I knew that you were referring to the apostle Paul, who wrote about half of the NT.
While in Rome, Paul initially converted (or tried to) the Jews living there. Thereafter he reached out to the Romans and other Gentiles.
The persecution of Christians commenced under Nero and subsequent emperors. It was most intense under Nero, which included letting lions on Christians as well as other forms of torture.
In 325 AD, emperor Constantine made Christianity as the Roman Empire's official religion. Yes, Paul laid the foundation for the growth of Christianity in the Roman Empire.
Monu:- Ashley, I find it difficult to accept that Paul had major influence in converting Constantine. Paul is said to have died before 70 AD (sorry Muthu CE) and Constantine converted to Christianity more than 250 years later.
Muthu: - A poetic description of Constantine I is given at this website, Classic History. I wonder if there is real evidence or it is scholarly speculation. Classic History
Monu: - This is an interesting piece. It says somewhere that a third of Constantine's army were already Christians. I suppose this could have been the result of conversions by Paul and others after him.
So Ashley's premise seems plausible.
Solly:- Paul and Constantine were by no means contemporaneous, but Paul brilliantly created a religion that was distinct from Judaism focussed on converting non-Jews in general and Romans in particular. Constantine and the Council of Nicaea (325 CE) was a Paul's posthumous victory.
Monu:- I suppose it also helped that Paul was a Roman citizen so his word would have carried more weight.
Solly:- Yes, very much so
Monu:- Ashley, I am impressed with your knowledge of history of early Christianity. I knew of the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed, including the different interpretations of Jesus, but did not know that Constantine organised it.
Solly:- Being Jewish in a missionary school, I paid close attention 😁
Pete:- Regarding the Nicean Creed.... the Christians at the time were organisés as communities of Neighbour with similar beliefs. There were many many churches, groups of churches and "bishops ". Many different beliefs. Some thought Jesus was a man. Period. Others that he was a son of God. Others the only son of god. Virgin birth, normal birth with siblings , without.
The Emperor called for a meeting of all the bishops. They were housed in a building and could not agree on anything. Finally they were Rolf: this is the creed that all of you must agree and accept. Till you do so you cannot leave. That is why it was agreed. Same process as a confession obtained in an Indian police station.
If you read the "Nicean Creed" word and sentence by sentence, it is a lot of garbage.
My favorite is " light from light, true light from true light ". Think about it and the permutation and combination of what that implies and does not.
Just 200 years earlier, Christians were fed to the Lions as a sport in Rome in the Colosseum.
Solly: - Credit Paul for that incredible reversal. Here I am referring to the apostle Paul for his skill in converting the Romans
Ved:- Ashley, I knew that you were referring to the apostle Paul, who wrote about half of the NT.
While in Rome, Paul initially converted (or tried to) the Jews living there. Thereafter he reached out to the Romans and other Gentiles.
The persecution of Christians commenced under Nero and subsequent emperors. It was most intense under Nero, which included letting lions on Christians as well as other forms of torture.
In 325 AD, emperor Constantine made Christianity as the Roman Empire's official religion. Yes, Paul laid the foundation for the growth of Christianity in the Roman Empire.
Monu:- Ashley, I find it difficult to accept that Paul had major influence in converting Constantine. Paul is said to have died before 70 AD (sorry Muthu CE) and Constantine converted to Christianity more than 250 years later.
Muthu: - A poetic description of Constantine I is given at this website, Classic History. I wonder if there is real evidence or it is scholarly speculation. Classic History
Monu: - This is an interesting piece. It says somewhere that a third of Constantine's army were already Christians. I suppose this could have been the result of conversions by Paul and others after him.
So Ashley's premise seems plausible.
Solly:- Paul and Constantine were by no means contemporaneous, but Paul brilliantly created a religion that was distinct from Judaism focussed on converting non-Jews in general and Romans in particular. Constantine and the Council of Nicaea (325 CE) was a Paul's posthumous victory.
Monu:- I suppose it also helped that Paul was a Roman citizen so his word would have carried more weight.
Solly:- Yes, very much so
Monu:- Ashley, I am impressed with your knowledge of history of early Christianity. I knew of the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed, including the different interpretations of Jesus, but did not know that Constantine organised it.
Solly:- Being Jewish in a missionary school, I paid close attention 😁
Pete:- Regarding the Nicean Creed.... the Christians at the time were organisés as communities of Neighbour with similar beliefs. There were many many churches, groups of churches and "bishops ". Many different beliefs. Some thought Jesus was a man. Period. Others that he was a son of God. Others the only son of god. Virgin birth, normal birth with siblings , without.
The Emperor called for a meeting of all the bishops. They were housed in a building and could not agree on anything. Finally they were Rolf: this is the creed that all of you must agree and accept. Till you do so you cannot leave. That is why it was agreed. Same process as a confession obtained in an Indian police station.
If you read the "Nicean Creed" word and sentence by sentence, it is a lot of garbage.
My favorite is " light from light, true light from true light ". Think about it and the permutation and combination of what that implies and does not.
Also the contradictions between "Children of God and Only Son of God".
Think about it and do not react straight away.
The Nicean creed is pure power play by emperor over bishops.
Rambo:- Interesting Pete. Never heard of "Nicean Creed" before
👍👍👍👍👍
Monu: - Peter, I was waiting for you to chip in.
My take is that here is a set of beliefs we have all been taught right or wrong. Better than not having any set of beliefs.
Anyway religion is a hoax. No one can prove or disprove any of it. People are generally comfortable when they have something to hold on to.
Also the more the rituals and mumbo jumbo more attractive it is to the common man and more so to the by women.
Never understood why women are more enamoured by religion than men.
Rambo:- As a school kid at St Bedes, I believed Jesus was God. Loved Collecting Holy Pictures and to me all Christians were Catholics. Did not question this. Only Later I learnt that Protestants are also Christians who do not believe in Mary and the Protestant Pastors are not chaste and can marry and have children.
Whether Catholics or Protestants every one went to Santhome Church and we could not tell who was Catholic or who was Protestant; unlike the Iyers - Shiva Worshippers and Iyengars - Vishnu Worshippers - who have either horizontal lines or vertical lines on their foreheads. Mind you men only had these markings indicating male domination in Hindu Religion.
Fast forward to Sydney I get to know about Jehovas witnesses, Mormans, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of England, Church of Scotland, Greek Orthodox Christians, Jesuits, Benedicts, , and the list is endless.
It was all about creating independent power structures and followers and raise funds. Each one was like a corporation and some became MNCs.. and then came Scientology..
On Monday I was chatting with my Physiotherapist who is a strong Catholic. I told her I find it annoying that Jehvas witnesses go door knocking and preaching about God and I could not believe what she said. Ram "Jehovas Witnesses are Not Christians" Same as Scientology . I had no clue and have to dig deep to find out.
I have two buddies. Both are Converted Christians from Malaysia and we meet once a month for drinks an dinner followed by a movie on the big screesn either a Western or a War movie . All you need is a few drinks and the debate of Catholics & Protestants kicks off and I as refree, have to call timeout..
"Man IMHO is a Victim of his own Devices" including Covid 19 which I strongly believe is a "Manmade Virus"..
Now we have another new Christian Sect called "Hill Song" in Sydney and they love singing out loud. I know because they hired the school auditorium on our street and made such loud noise all week end that all residents of the street mostly Christians banded together and got the school to ban them. All in the name of God & Jesus.
When you are feeling down and out you are looking for something to hang on to, to survive and pull through. The number of christian Friends who would kneel by my bedside and pray for me which was wonderful of them but was followed by "Ram you have to believe and follow Jesus, only then he can care for you" and I tell these young people I knew of Jesus even before you were born and Jesus in Santhome Church is strong and pure and cures any one who believes in him, not just Christians.
Every week we all went to the Chapel at school for Prayers and once a Month the whole class would go to Santhome church, which was next door to my school one class at a time. I love Santhome Church and even when I go on Holidays I have the urge to go to my fav church and kneel and pray and also go to my Fav Rama & Hanuman Temple at Sanskrit College. One day I must do some research on Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses as I don't know much about these Sects.
Pete, Monu and Ved please throw some light
Monu:- Let me add "Born Again Christians" and 'Pentecostals", "Baptists", "Lutherans", "Methodists" to your list. I have the first 2 of these types among my close relations.
To answer your question Rambo, basically all these groups use the Bible as their holy book but interpret them differently.
Pete: FYI, the New Testament gospel "christian" bible, is only about 30 pages telling mainly Jesus life story. There are 4 versions so about 130 pages. Then you get letters from various people etc,.
The teachings of Jesus are just 13 words.
Rest is hoopla .
Rambo: Obviously the Holy Book was Written in Latin and could be interpreted any which way to suit their needs same as Sanskrit literature. Latin and Sanskrit were out of reach for mere mortals.
Who are "Born again Christians" if I may ask ? I had to break 25 year friendship as he became aggressive in trying to convert me....
Monu do all these Divisions or Sects what ever you call it all come under the Pope in Rome or is he the Chief of just the Catholics ?
Rambo:- Pete you left me in suspense. What are the thirteen words. To me
"Jesus and Christianity" is explained in theTen Commandments. I can watch this movie any number of times and "Ben Hur" too.
Rambo:- Monu Interesting to hear you say Religion is a "Hoax". I too realised Religion was a Hoax only in 2013. Yes I do believe in God and Spirituality and not organised religion or the rituals. To me "Love is God", "Truth is God" and "my Inner Voice I call Conscience that tells me right from wrong 24/7 like a Nagging wife is my God" .
I do not think women are enamored by Religion as such. Women were totally dependent on their husbands financially making them very insecure, so they needed to cling on to something and Religion was there for grabs.
Do a survey of Youngsters, meaning the X and Y Gen Monu and you will find women are not as much into Religion and Rituals like our mothers were. You take my sons friends and their wives and GFs. No one is into God or Religion in Sydney irrespective of which religion their parents belonged to.
Sign of Changing Times. Majority of Old Caucasian Australians ( not migrants) do not believe in God. Don't know how that came about. Probably because most were Convicts deported from Britain and Ireland
Pete:- Pope is only head of Roman Catholics. There are other Catholic Churches like the Orthodox Greek, Russian Syrian and Coptic.
Re " ten commandments" they do not mention Jesus at all.
He said there is only one commandment:
"love God with all your heart mind and soul , love your Neighbour as yourself".
Those are the 13 words.
Note he did not specify god, or describe him.
Not a triangle with one eye, old bearded guy on cloud. Left that open.
Monu: Peter has explained very well.
Only one clarification needed Peter.
The "Eastern Orthodox" Churches consider themselves Catholic but not the "Oriental Orthodox".
The Coptics, Ethiopians as well as our Kerala Syrian churches come under the "Oriental Orthodox".
The Russian, Greek and other East European orthodox churches are classified as "Eastern Orthodox".
Looks more like a Racial based classification.
Sorry to bore some of you as this subject is getting quite complex.
Rambo: Not Boring at all Monu. I am absorbing every words from You and Peter. Definitely Racial classification as right now in Sydney we have Malaysian Christian Church, Korean Church, Philipino Church going my Nationality and Race. My Neighbour behind my back fence is an Australian Born Malaysian Chinese Pastor. We are very good friends but I won't talk about Religion and God with him.
So who are the Born Again Christians ?
and when were they reborn and why ?
Pete:- Monu the non oriental orthodox churches consider themselves Catholic ( literally meaning universal) but do not recognise the pope as their leader nor as God’s sole representative on earth.
Muthu:- Instead of saying religion is a "hoax", I think it is more appropriate to say God is a hoax.
At the same time, Jesus was not a hoax. Buddha was not, nor were the 24 Theerthankarars; and similar folks (Saints?).
But in the interest of spreading their thoughtful insights, their followers organized to "create" religion, and that empowered them in society as there was a buy-in.
I believe that was the genesis of organized religions of modern times. While the original intention was noble, it is now a commercial enterprise.
Rambo: 'My Take is different Muthu. I strongly believe Religion is a Man Made Hoax to brainwash and control the masses and Religion has been the cause of blood shed throughout history. I dream of a World Sans Religion.
Don't agree about God Being a Hoax. Science has its limitations which is the Human Mind and to this day cannot explain how life on earth came about. and what happens after death etc etc. You might ask me Can You see Good or have you seen God. With my naked eye No I have not seen God. Nor have I seen a Virus for which we need an electron Microscope. Anyway God to me I told you was Love, Truth and My Conscience. You dont have to agree
Rambo:- Muthu, Absolutely. Corporate Structure Using Jesus Christ to Raise revenue. With the Hindus each temple raises its own funds from local population except, may be Tirupathy attracts Hindus from all over Indian to fill the coffers. With Islam it is the Sunnis and Shias. Except I have no idea which Mosque is for Shias and which Mosque is for Sunis
Monu: Rambo, About Born Again. First I am no expert.
It means reaffirming ones belief in Jesus.
Christian children are baptised at birth and his/her god father takes an oath to ensure the child follows Christianity.
"Born again Christians" have to be baptised again as an adult and take the oath on.their own.
The words "Born Again" are mentioned by Jesus many times and these followers are fulfilling his teachings.
Rambo: Monu, Interesting so why don't they make it standard practice to re baptise all baptised population on reaching adulthood.
I love Going to the Church, Temple Hindu and Buddhist but it is between me and my God there don't want another human being preaching and patronising.
Monu:- You have to get the calling. Merely re-baptising is not enough.
Some denominations go in for "Confirmation". Young persons at around 15 years of age attend classes conducted by the priest on the Bible and Christianity in general and then they reaffirm their faith and vows taken during baptism, in a special church service in front of the whole congregation.
Ved:- Conversion to Christianity is a dual process as follows:
1. A person's personal will.
2. The actual conversion itself is performed by the Holy Spirit, the third person in the Trinity.
What is the 'Trinity'? Christianity is a monotheistic religion,
i.e., ONE God manifested in 3 persons. The Father, the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit. Not 3 Gods. Mate, I have used a lot of Christian jargon. If you missed anything, fire away your questions.
Rambo:- Ved you say " One God Manifested in three persons, where three persons are a monolyth body ? How is this Possible Father and son are two independent bodies are they not. Ved this is what I have been saying.
"GOD" there is Just one God and Religions are various forms of Marketing.
You will argue that Hindus have so many Gods. We do not and Hinduism is not a Religion either but a way of Life. Most of the Hindu Gods are about one aspect of Life on Earth. Laxmi is for wealth, Saraswathi is fro Knowledge, Brahma is the creator, Vishnu the Protector of life on Earth and Shiva the one who terminates life on earth.
You say your three Gods are One and we say all our Hindu Gods are one. At the end of the day Ved "God is an Entity, and each individual has a different perception of God It is more a Belief system. You have not seen Jesus nor have I seen Rama. People have the freedom of choice and IMHO people should be allowed to choose a God when they become adults and not forced at birth. Religion is dumped on us when we are born by our parents. I am observing two young couples in Sydney a Hindu man married to a Christian Girl, a Muslim Boy married to a Christian Girl and all four are different nationalities too. all nice young people and very spiritual too and very chartitable but no Jesus, Rama or Allah or Pastors and Mullahs in their lives. This is the new order for the future and I like it as there will be less blood shed globally. My own son and DIL are Prime example.
Ved, Explain to me why Mary is not Included in the list ? yet she finds a place in the Catholic Churches
Solly: A most interesting and thoughtful discussion
Ved:- This is a good question. The simple answer is that Mary is a human being and is not deity. Being a good person, she was chosen by God as the mechanism to send Jesus Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity to Earth as a man as well as deity (i.e., Jesus was God and man, having both attributes), to reach out and offer salvation to the people by forgiveness of sins.
Catholics revere Mary and pray to her also to act as an intermediary.
But this is unbiblical and therefore rejected by Protestants.
I do not have the time and space to get into the details. If you wish, please read the 4 gospel accounts given in the New Testament.
Rambo: Monu you say "I have the first 2 of these types among my close relations." Are you suggesting they change from one to another. Is it possible to be born a Catholic and become a Protestant later in life ? Don't believe a Vishnu follower by birth can convert and become a Shiva Follower
Monu:- Between most groups shifting allegiance is possible. You may have to be baptised again. However, Orthodox churches are not so easy to enter.
That said, a niece of mine married a German. He converted to the Syrian Orthodox faith in order to get married in the Syrian church. He was a Johannes before and now a Yohannan. His German mother was not at all pleased 😃.
Rambo: Monu Monu I get the feeling that the Greek Orthodox seem to convey the message that they are Superior Christians..( I have a Greek Orthodox neighbour living two doors away and the old fart never allowed his two daughters to get married to chaps who were not greek orthodox). Almost as bad as the Devars of South India.
Pete: - The Syrian Christians are pretty bad. My cousin was humiliated and not allowed to enter the church for her own wedding to a Syrian christian in a Syrian christian church. Though she was a Protestant, they said she needed to be purified. My dad blew up and walked out. They then relented. My dad’s patient being their bishop may have turned the tables as they were scared.
Monu:- Till quite recently marriages between Jacobite and Marthomite Syrian Christians were not allowed. These churches are slowly changing.
Rambo: Monu, I don't understand what "You have to get the calling " is.
I am assuming it is a personal desire or wish to follow God's ways. What about those who never get the calling ?
Monu I get the feeling that the Greek Orthodox seem to convey the message they are Superior Christians..( I have a Greek Orthodox neighbour living two doors away and the old fart never allowed his two daughters to get married to chaps who were not Greek orthodox). Almost as bad as the Devars of South India.
Rambo: The World would be a Better Place, with "One God say Jesus, One Church and No Men in Cloaks Preaching, Sermonising and Brain washing the Masses". Christianity has been tainted badly in OZ by the very men in Cloaks being Paedophiles. We have a Cardinal Pell in and now out of Jail. My Son went to Trinity Grammar School and last week the Police came to school and 2.30pm and arrested a male teacher in the presence of his students for texting and Grooming a 14 year old girl, who turned out to be a cop to trap him. This is the reason I do not believe in any one coming between me and my God.
The Good thing about Hindu Priests is that they offer prayers at the temple on your behalf and have zero influence on me and they have their own family lives.
The General Consensus is that Paedophiles become teachers to get access to children.
Monu: - Rambo, You seem to have a lot of questions regarding Religion and more especially about Christians.
I suggest we have a small question answer session during one of our Zoom calls if it's OK with the others.
Rambo: Not really Monu. I had limited knowledge and you, ved and pete have opened my eyes to reality. I have learnt an awful bit in this discussion. No time to pass the baton. If I am right it is your turn to host the session followed by Solly and Purinder. Muthu Pete and I have had heaps of hosting sessions. So monu you have two days to choose your topic.
Basically I want to take the best aspects of all religions and use them as a guide in this life. This is pretty much the "Bahai" faith's principle but I have not got around to investigate. We have a huge Bahai Temple and a large following in sydney
Rambo: Ved one Last question. You talked about "God, The Son and the Holy Spirit" Why Do Christians when they make the sign of the Cross Say "In The Name of the father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost Amen and not Holy Spirit Amen ?"
Rambo: Monu, No point asking questions about Islam in this group..🤣🤣🤣 I am waiting for the weekend for Solly to enlighten us all on his personal beliefs and Purinder. Both hard working men, where as we are retirees and every day is a sunday for us
