To begin with I shared an article written by Shashi Tharoor:-
"During the unpleasantness surrounding the arrest of 22-year-old in activist Disha Ravi, the most unsavoury of the many disagreeable elements in the controversy was the attempt of hindutva social media warriors to disparage her by claiming she is Christian. She is not, but what if she were? In the BJP’s “New India”, is merely being Christian enough to qualify for the epithet “anti-national”?
The irony is that Christians have long been among the builders of modern India, and many are the BJP leaders who, like L.K. Advani, had their intellect first shaped by Christian education. My first substantial interaction with Christian teachers took place when, as a rather nervous young boy, not yet six years old, I was admitted to the Montfort Boys’ Boarding School in Yercaud, Tamil Nadu. A year later I joined the prestigious Campion School, Bombay, where a majority of the teaching staff was Christian, and finished high school at the St Xavier’s Collegiate School in Calcutta, where I encountered a few more teachers of that persuasion.
I should mention that the three schools I went to from ages six to 16 had an interesting detail in common: they were all Catholic schools, two of them Jesuit. It is remarkable how much this one order has done to educate and train millions of Indian children to make successes in their lives.
A number of the priests at these schools were remarkably well-trained. At St Xavier’s I remember several brilliant young Jesuit fathers. The late Father Remedios, a superb guide to Shakespeare as well as “Values of Life” (Biblical ethics without the Bible!), was an excellent class teacher who, after instilling in us his profound knowledge of Julius Caesar, cycled regularly to jail, visiting prisoners to minister to their moral and spiritual needs.
The now-eminent theologian Cyril Desbruslais, then in his 20s, took my class through an epistemological argument for the existence of God, which certainly impressed my fourteen-year-old imagination at a time when I was beginning to flirt with the idea of atheism. When you discover rationality, the idea of religion does not seem so appealing, until you discover the limits of rationalism in a world whose wonders surpass the explanations of reason. But in between I benefited from a very rational, structured philosophical argument from this Jesuit priest who lectured teenagers on why God existed, citing Kant and Thomas Aquinas in the process.
I remember playing during the recess in our wonderful ‘big field’ with some of the outstanding Anglo-Indian students of the school, who consistently excelled at hockey in particular, and won every possible song and music competition. My debate and speech teacher at St Xavier’s, who also directed the high school’s annual play, was another sparklingly gifted exemplar of the cultural strengths of the Christian community.
It was particularly striking to me that in our interactions with these teachers, we were absolutely free to express our beliefs and views. Elsewhere, you learn to answer the questions. The teachers I was privileged to have taught me to question the answers—and later I went on to question the questions, too.
Thanks to them, at an impressionable age, I was given an education that combined a well-rounded tutelage with a pan-Indian outlook that made me deeply appreciative of eclectic social interests, the importance of a questioning spirit, and, above all, humanitarian regard for the well-being of others.
The next time a hindutvavadi tries to turn “Christian” into a term of abuse, I urge my fellow citizens of that faith to wear the badge with pride. There is much that millions of Indians should remain grateful to Christians for.
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About 2.00am Sydney Time I received an interesting response from PK as follows:- ( Was too late for me to Respond and I hit the sack)
1- Almost everything he says about Xtian educationists is spot on.
2- However his argument that the vast numbers of Hindutva people consider Xtians as anti-national is absurd.They do not think that even of Muslims. The fringe may rant, but nothing more. I feel that they are frustrated. They want to fight for equality with other religions. Against discrimination and ridicule of their religion. After 10th century, they feel Modi has given them a fighting chance.
Their frustration is increased due to the fact that Hindus who have benefited from Muslim, British and Independent Indian rule has arrogantly joined their persecutors against them.
Unlike structured and congregating Abrahamic religions they do not vote en bloc.
Again, like Abrahamic religions, the Hindu does not believe that his is the only God and all others are false . *This is the single most important point of conflict . * Even the Hindus and their Gods are in a range of perfection only. Not Black and White. Including Modi.
You will notice that in all Abrahamic countries, East or West, the others have been wiped out, making the country almost 100% of one religion.
As the Israeli diplomat asked the Muslims at the UN; where are the Jews in your countries ! ? He could have asked Europe, Where are the original religions?
I asked "Is this your own retort PK ???" before I went to bed and his response as Follows:
Yes. My observation of many of the Hindutva people whom I have watched.
Apart from above, for some years now, I am observing a disconnect in our batch between those who are Westernised, living in India and those who have migrated and acquired other citizenship on one hand and those who have come back or stayed on, all along in India.
This is a generalised and very broad division. Need not be true for each individual.
India has changed fundamentally in 50 years. The former group is extremely critical of the goings on. The latter is more realistic and pragmatic. Neither groups admire the situation, but their outlook is very different.
By the touchstone of Modi, who is a different person for different people. The former group hates him, but the other ranges between tolerence and admiration.
The latter has animosity for the previous establishment. Mainly they feel cheated for being brainwashed with the history, culture and values of the conquerors. They have mercilessly ridiculed, expelled those who differed from them, theologically, culturally, historically and in values. In the last few decades they are exposed to the alternative narratives and find some truth in them. These are not new ones brought by Modi, but older works of Germans and Indians which were treated as rubbish earlier.
You will be surprised of the many who belong to the latter group.
My Response to PK Point by Point:
PK You and I are good Buddies so let us discuss everything point by point without getting personal, as seems to be happening in all Batch Yahoo Groups friends turning on friends and spitting fire and abuse. I don't want to be part of that crap so I cut myself loose from all such groups
1- Almost everything he says about Xtian educationists is spot on.
PK You and I are Products of Christian School Education, you went to Madras Christian College and I went to St Bedes. Half my Hindu classmates at St Bedes were very well of TamBrams. sons of Judges, Lawyers, Doctors, IAS officers and Bank officials. They knew which side the toast was buttered. This is testament to the fact that Christian school education was superior to the Hindu schools, whether you like it or not.
2- However his argument that the vast numbers of Hindutva people consider Xtians as anti-national is absurd.They do not think that even of Muslims. The fringe may rant, but nothing more.
PK: Now to begin with do you consider yourself a Hindutva ?. If yes would you attribute it to your Birth as a Hindu or is this what you believe today as a Hindu ?
As for me I am definitely Not a Hindutva. Hindutvas to me are the dominant Upper Caste Hindus and they are probably max 10% of the total Hindu Population who have oppressed 90% of the Backward Caste Hindus nation wide.
I was born a Backward Caste or Backward Class Hindu what ever you call it and have faced so many insults for being born a an untouchable Sudra. My Brahmin friends would come home to my house and eat, drink and play yet when I visited them, I was not allowed into their homes, because of Theetu as Tam Brams Called it. I don't blame my Friends as they were just kids like me It was their Brahmin culture practiced by their families. Brahmin Homes with Widowed Grandmothers were the worst. Even if I leaned against the wall of the house the old lady will come out mumbling and grumbling and sprinkle holy water to cleanse the surface I had infected. Yes I did feel like a Virus or a Leper
This was me in a Metro full of educated Hindus; imagine the plight of Dalits up north and even in Kerala where Dalits had to remove their chappals when they crossed streets inhabited by Brahmins.
I experienced this rubbish in IIT Madras Hostels too
You say the Fringe may Rant too. Absolutely True. Hindutvas are the Fringe made up of the intolerant upper caste Hindus (not all). In the social media we do not hear much from the UP or MP belt of Hindutvas as they do not write English like the Tam Brams of Madras and Mallus Nairs of Kerala. I can understand Tambrams as they feel they were oppressed by DMK. I do not understand the Nairs though, as they are not brahmins even, all meat eaters like you and me. Perhaps you can explain
3 - Your Point about Abramical religions etc is digressing the topic so let us stick to the debate
In My Opinion Hindutvas are a Minority who did not win power but got into power when the nation said enough was enough to Corruption in UPA II.
I too celebrated when Modi Came to Sydney. I was celebrating the fact that UPA II got shunted and not celebrating Modi's victory and I can never forget what happened in Gujarat in 2002. It is etched on my mind especially the thought that Hindu mob dragged a pregnant muslim woman slashed her belly dragged the unborn child and killed it and let the woman bleed to death. This is not Hindu Dharma as I know it. It has to be the Hindutva's new revised Gita Upadesam for this Millenium
I wish Leo Jaya Prakash was alive today. It would be interesting to listen to the two of you debate and argue the point
3- Yes. My observation of many of the Hindutva people whom I have watched. Apart from above, for some years now, I am observing a disconnect in our batch between those who are Westernised, living in India and those who have migrated and acquired other citizenship on one hand and those who have come back or stayed on, all along in India.
PK, For starters you have to define who a Hindutva is.
To me they are the RSS Marching in Khaki shorts & white shirt carrying a Lathi. I am to understand there may be about five million Registered Members in RSS to day and not at all surprised to hear many Tam Brams outing themselves as RSS after Modi Came to Power backed by RSS
We have to discuss Modi separately Modi has driven wedges between friends and even family members. He is exploiting the divide and rule policy unfortunately he is unable to sense the Tsunami that will drown him and his RSS Comrades.
The Lower caste Hindus, the Dalits, the scheduled castes & Tribes, the Sikhs, the Christians, the farmers, the poor migrant workers Modi abandoned when he locked the country not to forget the 200 million muslims of India are going to dump him so badly at the next election, that he will like Hitler end his own life .
Even as we speak BJP members of Parliament who have been silenced the last seven years in a draconian pseudo democracy are beginning to revolt. They will come out with daggers when he loses the election for BJP. If he does not kill himself he will join Ambani in his Castle in UK
Modi to me is no Leader or Neta just a Chaiwalla. He is just a Puppet on RSS strings just like Manmohan Singh was in UPA II.
RSS only hope now is that there is no party strong enough to beat BJP. Not long before a United Front will be formed to take on BJP.
Tell me a PM who is scared to walk amongst people who elected him is not a popular leader is he ?.
If he comes to Madras he will receive Chappals. If he goes to Punjab, Kerala & Bengal, which he never will as he may not come back alive.
Modi is living in a dream castle like Donald Trump did.
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PKs Response: Hindutva is a derogatory political term coined by Establishment Hindus and others. There is no such group. All Hindus who do not agree with them are lumped together.
Do not confuse Brahminism with Hindutva. Politically Brahminism is a negligible force due to minimal votes in a democracy.
People like Modi and Yogi are OBCs like you.
Establishment upper caste Hindus who have been in power for about 70 years have done precious little to counter caste bias.
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Me: PK, In This one Paragraph you have answered all my questions unasked. Thank You.
Hindutva is an ideology or movement seeking to establish the hegemony of Hindus and Hinduism in India..
Nothing derogatory at all. It is no Different to Jihadis is it ??.
Hinduism is the name given to the most ancient and persistent religion on the Indian subcontinent, and Hindutva is the name by which the ideology of the Hindu Right, represented by the political party Bharatiya Janata Party, or Indian People's Party (BJP), is known. Modi is a show pony selected by the RSS Brahmans to try and convince the 90% of Hindus who are lower caste like me. I am not at all fooled by such Chanakya stratagems. Brahmins know they do not have the numbers to swing votes as experienced from Advanis Yatras that did not get any mileage.
Modi and Yogi will be history soon PK teaching the Brahmans they have failed yet again. What is the caste bias you are blaming the congress for. This is the curse of the nation when some dogs feel they are superior to the majority of dogs. Do you believe Modi is going to wipe out the caste Bias. No way
BTW PK, you have not told me if you are a Hindutva or not. I am not. Dont Forget our Batch mate Sarr's Grand father was the CM of Tamil Nadu that got ousted by DMK for its high handed attitude towards anti Hindi agitators shooting dead a few students at Annamalai University.
Not Long before Modi loses his cool and orders agitators to be shot and that will end his Yatra instantly.
PK: I am a Hindu. I oppose extremism of all - Hindus, Muslims, Communists, Naxalites, Dalits, etc. Also I oppose anyone who supports another country.
If any one in ignorance lables me as Hindutva, so be it.
I am vehemently opposed to the theives and frauds; the Gandhis.
Me: Now we are talking baby. You and I are on the same boat. I hate all extremists in any religion and the Hindutva Movement in India since Modi came to power has driven me away from the Hindu Religion and I prefer to be spiritual and live in peace. I don't believe meaningless poojas and offerings to Gods of Milk and honey when poor outside the temples are starving.
Dont worry about what others think of you PK Who cares what they think ?
I did not get involved in Indian Politics and Current affairs until year 2000 when I had a stroke. You may not be aware 24/7 I was fighting corruption. You may not even know that I hosted a Public Yahoo Group Called JAGO INDIA with over 8000 members opposing corruption in UPA I and UPA II.
If Mr Modi is squeaky clean why did he not publish the detailed list of Indians with Swiss bank accounts which he promised? Perhaps Ambani, Adani, Nirav Modi and Tatas names feature on the lists besides BJP MPs and ministers. I cannot see any other reason Can you ?
Me: PK do you remember the song Living Years by Mike and the mechanics. Every Generation Blames the one before. Listen to it if you dont.
Modi and his ilk are doing nothing new just blaming the previous generation for all the ills on present times. History repeats itself as you know and next generation will Blame Modi for destroying India.
Me: PK can you explain why you object to some one supporting another country. I don't follow. There must be a context for generating this thought
So amongst our batch mates who are the fanatic Hindutvas and who are all anti Modi and who sit on the fence. Just being curious
PK: First no one is saying that Modi is perfect. Among the contestants I feel he is better. That is all.
CPM supported China in 1962. That is why they broke away from CPI. Even today on the border occupation and present encroachment they openly support China.
There are small militant groups of Muslims who support Pakistan openly.
All these take advantage of a free country. Not available in the land of their mentors.
Me: We have such fools in all countries PK we have Neo Nazis in OZ who were all caught recently and Jihadists too.
What can you and I do about it ? Nothing.
RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNANCE and for that reason Modi has to go as he has fragmented India and Indians. Even you and I are arguing.
Modi is Bad News for India just like Donald Trump was and Hitler was.
Me: I can tell you one Tam Bram Friend (not a Friend any longer) told me that we should line up all 200 million Muslims get the army to shoot them and bull dose them into the sea and I told him to go Fuck Himself
There is always a rotten apple in every barrel.
PK: I find the media only picks up Hindu fanatics. Even if the percentage of violent among them are far less than others.
Me: PK, Media is under Modi's control so this argument is not valid
PK: Not by a long shot. It is the other way around. Especially English media which has much foreign holdings. Some say by Churches
In addition every political party has newspapers and TV channels in regional languages.
It is another thing that many people watch Pro Modi media.
Me: So In conclusion you are neither a Hindutva not a Modi Fan but want to accept he is the best we can have now. As for Modi and Yogi Bear being OBC that is a clever RSS Ploy to fool the masses and
You can fool all the people sometimes Some people all the time but cannot fool all the people all the time.
Trust me.
Truth Prevails in the End. Always
